“Ricci/Forte appeal directly to people's hearts” 

Rita Maffei is an Italian actress and director. She has been working since 1987 as an actress with Cesare Lievi, Elio De Capitani, Marco Baliani, Massimo Navone, Lorenzo Salveti, Andrea Taddei, Luigi Lo Cascio, Alessandro Marinuzzi, Antonio Syxty, Giardini Pensili, Giuliano Scabia, Gigi Dall'Aglio, Giuseppe Emiliani. She staged several performances in Italy and abroad (France, Belgium, England, Iran, India, USA), having always been devoted to contemporary drama. In 2016 she will produce a “train trip” in twelve episodes from Udine to Rome, similar to the journey undertaken by Pier Paolo Pasolini in 1950. Rita Maffei has published books on theatre and won several awards. She has been the Italian responsible for the École des Maîtres from 1999-2003 and from 2006 until now. Since 2014 she is artistic adviser for the theatre division of the Mittelfest festival in Cividale del Friuli. She has been artistic director of the CSS Teatro stabile di innovazione del FVG since 1999, in the premises of which this interview was conducted.

Let's start with the very beginning. How was your first encounter with Ricci/Forte's theatre?

Rita Maffei: The first meeting took place in 2006. We had been organizing for many years the Candoni Prize for New Drama. Candoni was from the Italian region of Friuli. He was the first countryman who translated Ionesco and Beckett into Italian. At that time there was a theatre network in Italy. All seven theatre halls were working together for this award with the aim of creating a production of a text. Each theatre proposed an author. Antonio Calbi, then manager of the Teatro Eliseo (now head of the Teatro di Roma) suggested a text by Ricci/Forte, namely Troia's Discount. Thus, the artist duo came for the very first time to us, to Udine, to the Teatro San Giorgio. This is how we met Stefano Ricci and Gianni Forte. Since then we have been passionately dedicated to their work and have followed them almost everywhere to see their performances. At the same time we have continued to invite them to Udine.

For example in 2009, when we dedicated the festival Living Things to Pinter. It was one year after the playwright's death. Several artists staged different texts of Pinter in all premises of the Teatro San Giorgio. There were performances everywhere: on the stage and beneath it, in the orchestra (the chairs had been removed), in the locker room, in the rehearsal room, even outside the theatre hall. For example in Victoria Station six people at a time were travelling in a British cab through the city. All shows were performed simultaneously. Ricci/Forte presented our first joint co-production, which was repeated several times a day for only three viewers at a time in the locker room. All artists worked directly on Pinter's texts, except for Ricci/Forte. They created their own interpretation, which they called Pinter's Anatomy. In 2012 we continued with our second co-production, Imitationofdeath. A year later we were hosts of Still Life. Thus, there was an ongoing getting to know each other. Our last co-production was Darling. Finally, the desire arose to appoint them in 2014 masters of the École des Maîtres.

How did the audience react in the beginning in Udine? And how has it developed over the years?

R.M.: The public is very impressed by Ricci/Forte. It has always been like that. I remember people leaving with tears in their eyes from Pinter's Anatomy. The spectators were strongly taken in by the performance. It was a staging with three performers for an audience made also of only three persons. This gave the impression that each performer acted for each viewer personally. It was love at first sight. Since then, there has always been a full house at any of Ricci/Forte's shows in the Teatro Palamostre in Udine. And the reaction is warm. Another reason might be that our audience loves this kind of performance. It is accustomed to contemporary theatre.

Why are Ricci/Forte important for the Italian theatre scene?

R.M.: I think there are several reasons for this. On the one hand there is the emotional aspect, i.e. the viewer is affected mainly through the impact of their soulful performances, which happens even before the spectator is able to process the staging through his intellectual filter. This is Ricci/Forte's most powerful “tool”. This element is on one side expressed through the topics to which they have firmly devoted themselves. These have a precise impact on the target audience. On the other hand, the use of the music plays a very important role. The selection of songs is extremely addictive. Many even say that it is a wise selection, as such that Ricci/Forte know how to use the music in order to touch a person's heart and soul. This musical component amplifies the emotional impact. What's more, they have managed like no other in Italy to win a very young audience for themselves.

This means they are unique.

R.M.: In my opinion, yes, they are unique. The young generation follows them everywhere. That is their winning feature, because the average age of the theatre goers in Italy is very high, whereas Ricci/Forte were able to reduce the average age significantly. Of course, the gender problem also plays an important part. Ricci/Forte have often shown performances like Still Life in Rome. Thus, the duo speaks directly to the target audience who loves them very much. But this is, in my opinion, an aspect that has more to do with marketing.

Then there are the profoundly poetic elements. These are definitely the most interesting ones. Ricci/Forte manage to create their own dramatic writing which aims directly to people's hearts. Despite its simplicity, it is very cultivated. That's a very important thing: this merger of an understandable language with refined themes. They even relate to aspects of everyday life which they pack in a very sophisticated cultural context. And that is for certain a winning combination.

Apart from the use of the music that I mentioned at the beginning, there is another item that belongs to their poetics: the physical theater strongly related to the “Body”. Actually, “Body” is not the right word. Some critics say that one can always see nude bodies on stage at the end of Ricci/Forte's performances. But there is never the naked body. It is merely the soul of the artist which is naked. This is the greatest strength of their shows. We have already seen nudity on stage in all versions. Who cares? Ricci/Forte manage to uncover the soul of the artist. All these components have created a special relationship between the audience and the artist ensemble, a kind of special loyalty. As I've already mentioned, fans follow the group everywhere.

Do you think the spectators perceive the nakedness of the soul?

R.M.: He who manages to figure out this aspect, loves Ricci/Forte deeply. Anyone who sees only the naked body, is not able to go beyond this.

This discovery is indeed like a slap in the face.

R.M.: In fact, paradoxically, they “beat” the audience. Many viewers do not accept this, because it is not easy. It really is as if you looked at yourself in the mirror. And that scares many off.

Let us now talk about the École des Maîtres.

R.M.: In 2014 Croatia was for the first time part of the project. Ricci/Forte have worked with five countries and, therefore, with a bigger number of performers. Instead of sixteen, there were four more actors, i.e. a total of twenty young participants.

Will the show continue to be presented?

R.M.: No. We do not even call it a show, only a public presentation, because the École des Maîtres works in the following way. It is a project with a high degree of specialization for European actors under 34 years old. Together with our partners, we take over the costs: the day and night rates, the travel expenses and the fees of the workshop with a master of the European theatre scene. Thus, the youngsters are not paid. The public presentation serves solely to create a relationship with the audience, to “open doors”. But we do not pay for the tickets and also do not take the show back on, because it wouldn't be fair to the young actors who do the job only as an educational experience. The project cannot be used in order to go on tour. It ends in the participating countries.

And how was Ricci/Forte's workshop in Udine?

R.M.: Actually, Udine is the annual seat of the first fifteen days. This is the most sensitive, but also the most fruitful period. During these a bit more than two weeks, a mutual understanding develops between both the young people as well as between them and the master. It is a very intense period. Ricci/Forte have never indulged in a single day off. It was incredible for how many hours a day they worked together: between ten and fourteen hours! This really was a full immersion. And it works in Udine, because it is a small town which has none or very little distractions to offer during the month of August. The city is also half empty, because many go to the beach. So the artists can concentrate on their work. The first two weeks are critical, because it is then that the relationship between the young actors and the masters is accomplished. 2014 was certainly one of the most intense years of all 24 representing the history of the École des Maîtres. The attitude of Ricci/Forte towards the way of working and the nature of their work, have created that intensity.

Leaving aside the fact that the analysis of Genet's topics was very personal. This was another case where the soul was exposed. In fact, a few actors have left. They did not make it, they couldn't accept the kind of work that was required from them. Let's take the scene of the “prayer” as an example. This is a beautiful and powerful moment, a clear proof of Ricci/Forte's work. Everything seems so authentic. Nothing is imitated. That's something in particular I'm very fond of about Ricci/Forte.

You don't find their kind of performers everywhere. How do you see the future of the artist ensemble?

R.M.: For me, Anna (Gualdo) is a heroine. She's a very professional actress, an artist of great skill. I do not want to exaggerate, but what Ricci/Forte demand, would be accepted by very few Italian actresses who have reached Anna's performing skills level. She is exceptionally generous, but her generosity is accompanied by an incredible professionalism. Such a combination is very rare to find. This energy and freedom of movement are perhaps normal for beginners, but they lack the experience. Anna, on the other hand, has both.

But you are also an actress!

R.M.: Yes, but I would never have the courage to do what Anna does.

Why?

R.M.: If there were only the physical acts, I would have no hesitation in doing them. But it is everything altogether. Anna has devoted her art and herself to Ricci/Forte. And she did it with a huge commitment and great driving force.

I would like to add something. Namely, the big step forward that Ricci/Forte have achieved with Darling, their latest production. It was strongly criticized by some, because they considered it less successful than the other productions. Thereby I am referring to the theatre critics. In my opinion, Ricci/Forte have proven a lot of courage with Darling. They were more radical than in their previous decisions and have managed to abandon the “mechanisms” that work well with their audience. And that's very difficult. They have analyzed their own theatre and have brought a lot of new elements. Their selection was amazing. Therefore, Darling is a profound and courageous performance. It is certainly more powerful and more difficult than their other shows.

Thank you for the interview!

 translated from German by Irina Wolf

 Udine, January 31st, 2015

“A very special, contested potion mixture”

Roman Dolzhanskiy was born in 1966 and studied at first at the State Instituteof Steel and Alloys in Moscow, before he took his degree in Theatre Studies at the Russian Academy of Theatre Arts (GITIS). Since 1995 he has been a reporter for the newspaper “Kommersant”, since 1998 artistic director of the festival “New European Theatre” (NET) in Moscow. Roman Dolzhanskiy was a jury membe rfor the"Golden Mask Award". In 2003 he was awarded the Chaika prize, whereas in 2004 he received the Alexander Kugler prize. Roman Dolzhanskiy is co-founder of the “Territoria” festival together with Evgeny Mironov, Kirill Serebrennikov and Andrey Urayev. This international, multicultural school festival was launched in 2006 with the support ofthe Russian Ministry of Culture and the Moscow city government. The programme consists of unique, cross-genre, modern and experimental performances.

How was your first encounter with Ricci/Forte? What struck you most when you first saw their performances?

Roman Dolzhanskiy: The idea was that I am always looking for shows for my festival (for Territoria) and for NET (New European Theatre, which I have been curating together with Marina Davidova for the last 15-16 years). I am also programmer for the Territoriafestival which deals more with worlds of several genres, of music and dance, and theatre together. We are exploring, not dividing the worlds. So I travel around and watch shows in order to bring them to Moscow. But Territoriais also a festival which offers a lot of workshops for students. Actually it's not a festival, it is a school festival. We bring young actors from all over Russia. They have ten days of very intense work. Students come from big cities like Novosibirsk, Ecaterinburg, Vladivostok, where they don't have so much of the world theatre, where they are taught sometimes in a very conservative manner, in the Stanislavski system. So the festival was invented for them, to open up, to show them that there isn't only Russian theatre, which is sometimes great, but sometimes awful, that this isn't the only form of theatre in the world. That there are different ways of doing theatre, especially now when it is so popular to mix genres: dance and drama theatre, dance and puppet theatre, cinema and so on.

So I always look for something which could be interesting not only in terms of productions, but also as a new system which can be taught to the students, which can be interesting from the point of view of teaching and learning. And I had heard about Ricci/Forte from one of my colleagues who lives in Italy and had seen one of their shows. But Ricci/Forte were completely unknown in Russia. And the Italians have a strange system. When you come, for instance, to Austria to a festival, you will see the Burgtheater. Of course interesting things do not only happen in the Burgtheater, but you are starting with the institutions. It doesn't mean that you won't find the most interesting things somewhere else. But the usual logic is that you go to the institutions.

But in Italy this is useless, because you will never go to see the Teatro Stabile. So you have to find a way round. Plus, the most interesting aspects in Italian theatre are to be found in the marginal, if we are talking about the establishment (even in the case of Romeo Castellucci, Pippo Delbono, Emma Dante and so on). All the interesting names are just somewhere else, not in the main square. You always have to ask people. This is what I did and many told me about Ricci/Forte. First, I saw their pictures and they seemed quite interesting. Maybe it was intuition, the pictures or some text I had read that determined me to go and see them. And when I went to Rome and saw two of their works (Grimmlessand Macadamia Nut Brittle) I understood that it is a must in the frame of Territoriafestival.

Sometimes I think that everything about contemporary theatre is about communication. Because this is one of the few ways of communicating about life and our world, in which we are now mere gadgets. And everything is spoiled. It is just the only way where you come together with other people and you communicate with them directly onstage. Because you know, sometimes we are sitting around the table and talking with each other and at same time we are playing with our mobile phone. It is crazy, but this is the world. That is why I think that all theatre now is about communication and how we communicate with the audience.

And I noticed that Ricci/Forte have a very special way of communication. Apart from the fact that it is a very special way of dealing with the classical culture, of a rare rediscovery of the classical plots, of the fairy tales as well. I think they also have a lot from the folklore, because everything they have done is a kind of fairy tale. A contemporary one acted by children who have grown up, but who are still children. And they see their audience as being grown-up children.

Actually I think one of their ideas is about going back to childhood.

R.D.: I agree, they are trying. I found the actors on the stage to be stressed, because they have grown up, but they are not ready for it.

What did you invite to Russia?

R.D.: I have chosen Grimmless for Territoria, because I thought that it was more soft. It was important, especially for the students, not to spoil the first contact with things which could be too radical, too foreign.

But Ricci/Forte are very radical. What was the perception in Russia?

R.D.: It was very good. It was so good that we invited them also to conduct a workshop. They have actually done a show in the Gogol Centre. The latter have an ensemble with a lot of young actors, so they are interested in inviting people who can show other ways of performing. So after Ricci/Forte had run their workshop for Territoria, they were invited to the Gogol Centre to make this show. It was work-in-progress, I would say. It was not a complete show. But it was quite amazing how they have done it in such a short time. Still, when I was watching the show with a cast of Russian actors I was missing the Italian actors.

Why?

R.D.: I think it is a kind of national specificity, openness and temperament. Ricci/Forte are very challenging, they ask very much and they need a certain degree of openness, the “irritation of emotions”. And Russian actors work quite differently. They were much heavier with them. What I was missing was the energy of their challenge.

Did the students who participated in the workshops open up?

R.D.: Yes, I think so. I can say that they opened up. Probably after the first encounter they were a little bit scared. You could feel it also in the show. But they were very devoted to the process and I think they were very open. But the “system” which Stefano and Gianni invented, is very much growing from the Italian division. They are very international of course, but they are very national at the same time. When I saw them working with Russians, I understood that they are not so much universal, they are growing from this Italian way of acting.

That is interesting, because Gianni now lives in Paris.

R.D.: Yes, I know. But for me they are an important part of Italy. The way of mixing up emotions, subconsciousness, openness, spontaneous reactions is very challenging for me. Perhaps I am wrong. I didn't see their other experiences with actors in different countries. But when they worked with the students in the festival (Territoria) it was completely amazing, because the students really opened themselves up. They were saying and doing so unexpectedly sincere things. For instance, one of the exercises was to embrace each other and to hear your partner's breath. They work with very intimate things and sometimes it breaks privacy. But this is theatre. In theatre people have to be ready to be naked on stage, I mean emotionally naked (and phisically as well). Ricci/Forte deal a lot with nakedness. This physical nakedness in their shows is, of course, another way of bringing the above mentioned emotional nakedness on the stage.

There are a lot of companies in Europe which are critical in social terms, in terms of subconsciousness, about Freudistic issues. Others are talking about eternal problems of culture, like Castellucci. But what I like in Ricci/Forte is their mixture, that they are socially very critical, but at the same time it is not the social theatre which usually becomes very boring after five minutes. You can see and you understand that what they are telling is important, they are really touching, sometimes they are very radical to the audience and they are trying to wake them up. We all know this kind of theatre. But sometimes you think the human dimension is missing.

And you find this in Ricci/Forte.

R.D.: Yes. It is a kind of applied art. They have their social aim, their social concern, but artistic as well. And how do they manage to be critical in a social sense? In a way they are very light. They are not heavy at all. So you are not depressed after their shows, although they are talking about death, about time, about existentialistic things: that people cannot meet each other, that life is dying, the body is dying, that we are wasting our time and “time is our main enemy”, as Stefano says. But the way it is done is very touching. You feel it with your heart, but you don't go out of the theatre hall with a dark feeling. Because Castellucci, for example, is very spectacular artistically, fantastic as pieces of contemporary art, but he is very depressing. Sometimes art has to destroy you, in order to reconstruct yourself. However, Ricci/Forte do not destroy. I value this very much. For me it is very important not to be “killed”, not to be “terrified” by the theatre. And this is also very important for the audience.

In Russia which is very critical in style and nakedness and not only, we did talk about politics before how did this integrate?

R.D.: We have to consider that they were invited to the theatre of the festival, so the audience was quite special. If they had been presented in a small town, in a small theatre far from Moscow, the audience would have probably been shocked. In Moscow, in this festival, the audience, the young people, are more or less used to see such things, because we also had invited quite a lot of famous artists, such as Castellucci, Alain Platel, Arpad Schilling, Rodrigo Garcia who are also very radical. I was not scared about the contents, in the festival context. And what they did in the Gogol Centre is actually theatre which deals with young audience. They did not really confront themselves with the conservative audience in Russia. I would say it was a kind of artificial work. Therefore, it was safe.

Because we talked about censorship.

R.D.: Well, yes. This was two and a half years ago. And then it was not so scary. This negative process has developed very fast during the last year. The main thing which I find very dangerous is aimed at bringing the people to self-censorship. It is not only the official censorship. The people themselves are starting to think in that direction. I myself feel unsure, because the festival is state-subsidized.

To tell you the truth, if I met Ricci/Forte now, I would be much more careful with choosing the show. We were thinking about Imitationofdeath, but for the moment, no. I would love to, because they are fantastic, both so different individuals and all their actors. As I have said, this is a very special kind of mixture of making contemporary theatre (movement, music, short, concentrated, spectacular, social and, in a way, it grows up inside you after it’s ended).

I have very good and warm memories about our cooperation, their show and workshops, and their acceptance. They are open, simple, they are not talking about high art, they are dealing with real life. Their theatre is on one hand artificial, i.e. it is a pretense not to be the real life. It's like an attraction, sometimes it is like cabaret, but at the same time they are dealing with real life. They have a simple language which is made from the same material life itself is made. What an interesting angle of viewing and what a potion, dealing with dark, dangerous and sad things, but mixed in such a way that when you drink it, you think it is a contested drink, that it is not from here, still it was prepared here. A very special “double feeling“.

This is a wonderful finish. Thank you very much for the interview!

 Vienna, May 30^th, 2015